Thanks for the compliment Jer.Eps, I do try my best, although I'm not always satisfied with the result.
You may hear more crackles and pops on my rips than some made by others, not necessarily because my records are in worse shape, but because one of the cartridges I use [I switch around] is notoriously crisp and accurate.
Sometimes, it does beautiful things to worn-out records....but usually at the expense of picking up a bit more noise than a 'softer' cartridge would.
Many older mono LPs and 45s (especially 45s) were cut with a broader groove than modern stereo LPs and 45s. When these records are played back with a fine-tipped modern stylus the result can be noisy as the stylus traces the garbagey bottom of the groove. Playing with a broad-tipped stylus (the Grado mono cartridges use a 1 mil elliptical stylus, for example) will allow the cartridge to track an area higher up the groove wall which - as long as it is not much damaged by previous playing - may give a better, less noisy result.
If ticks and pops bother you, the best software I know for removing that stuff is ClickRepair - it does a mathematical analysis rather than applying a filter, and it leaves almost everything (besides the unwanted noises) untouched. I use it often and it gives excellent results.
ClickRepair has one extra bonus - it has a mono summing algorithm too, which does a great job of mixing the two stereo signals into a mono final result.
Ticks and pops take their toll in one "hidden" way - they really test the headroom and performance of your phono preamp. Ticks are often much larger signals than music and also have very very sudden rise times. The electronics can have trouble dealing with signals like this and the result can be degradation of the sound on other parts of the record besides the ticks. So a good phono preamp is a must. I use an all-tube phono I designed and built myself and it is pretty well able to shake off these overloads; many modern half-assed designs aren't.
None of this is meant to imply you should be doing things differently - your setup, whatever it is, is obviously working very well already. It's just more in the nature of Things an OCD Mono Freak Thinks About Too Much.
"It's just more in the nature of Things an OCD Mono Freak Thinks About Too Much."
I'm definitely a mono freak, and yeah, a bit obsessive about it.
I use a Grado mono cartridge when ripping some records....on others I find a 'sharper' needle perks up the sound in a way I like. In fact, I'd say that close to that garbagey bottom sometimes lies cleaner response than what you might otherwise get from a well-worn record.
Thanks for the info....particularly that about pre-amps...really interesting.
"I use a Grado mono cartridge when ripping some records...."
OK, no wonder I like your stuff so much. Those Grados are definitely the mojo when it comes to some fat-groove 45s. Check out some of the old RCA Victor mono classical records with that stylus - those are definitely another good matchup.
"on others I find a 'sharper' needle perks up the sound in a way I like. In fact, I'd say that close to that garbagey bottom sometimes lies cleaner response than what you might otherwise get from a well-worn record."
Definitely! - it totally depends on the record. Even if you are "supposed to" use a fat stylus, you MAY get a better sound from the sharp stylus on any given copy.
I'm glad you agree Jer.Eps...by and large I rely on my own listening experience rather than what I'm told is supposed to work [for better or worse].
Truth is, I do think I have a problem with upper mid/high end distortion, regardless of the cartridge used....which I'm now wondering about. Might that be symptomatic of the phono stage problem you mentioned?
It's hard to know if others can hear this problem, as my speakers are a ultra efficient full-range driver/folded horn design. Finicky exacting beasts at best.
At this point I'm using the phono stage built into my early seventies AR amplifier....an amp I love, but one I've always considered sounds overly 'bright'. I'm gonna see if I can borrow a separate pre-amp and try running everything through a bridged mono Hafler I have.
If I decide to buy a new pre-amp, do you have any thought or suggestions in the lower price range? I think Rega makes a tube pre-amp that sells for something around $150.
1. fullrange horns - you're too far gone to save. That's part of the definition of the audio deep end, from which there is no return. Trust me, I know whereof I speak. The good news, like being cast away in Tahiti, no one in their right mind would WANT to come back! If you've found your own way to that "style" of audio, no wonder you know how to make 50-year-old 45s sound right. Do you know my NOLA audiobuddy Ben Lyons by any chance?
2. Harshness. The first place I'd look is in your turntable geometry. Tonearms are usually set up to reproduce an average groove across the sweep of an LP. You play 45s - the tonearm is not tracking them at an optimal angle (because the average groove you're playing is quite a bit closer to the center spindle) and once you start trying to get a good sound from mono records with this handicap it gets even crazier. I think that's why juke boxes always sound so good - they are set up for 45s and ONLY 45s. I ended up going to a linear tracking tonearm and one of the things this did for me was blow open the sound of 45s bigtime. Linear trackers have perfect alignment everywhere across the record, LP or 45, and I promise you that is a plus.
3. What I Would Do If I Was You. Go all tubes. All you need with a full range horn setup is a single ended 2A3 power amp (3 to 5 W per channel) and that is the drug you never kick. My personal preference is also for tube phono as well but there is something to be said for the cleanliness of a solid state phono if it's a good one.
Deep groove on this one. Thanks for making such great transfers, too - your records sound great!
ReplyDeleteThanks for the compliment Jer.Eps, I do try my best, although I'm not always satisfied with the result.
ReplyDeleteYou may hear more crackles and pops on my rips than some made by others, not necessarily because my records are in worse shape, but because one of the cartridges I use [I switch around] is notoriously crisp and accurate.
Sometimes, it does beautiful things to worn-out records....but usually at the expense of picking up a bit more noise than a 'softer' cartridge would.
ana....
Here's some info you may find useful:
ReplyDeleteMany older mono LPs and 45s (especially 45s) were cut with a broader groove than modern stereo LPs and 45s. When these records are played back with a fine-tipped modern stylus the result can be noisy as the stylus traces the garbagey bottom of the groove. Playing with a broad-tipped stylus (the Grado mono cartridges use a 1 mil elliptical stylus, for example) will allow the cartridge to track an area higher up the groove wall which - as long as it is not much damaged by previous playing - may give a better, less noisy result.
If ticks and pops bother you, the best software I know for removing that stuff is ClickRepair - it does a mathematical analysis rather than applying a filter, and it leaves almost everything (besides the unwanted noises) untouched. I use it often and it gives excellent results.
ClickRepair has one extra bonus - it has a mono summing algorithm too, which does a great job of mixing the two stereo signals into a mono final result.
Ticks and pops take their toll in one "hidden" way - they really test the headroom and performance of your phono preamp. Ticks are often much larger signals than music and also have very very sudden rise times. The electronics can have trouble dealing with signals like this and the result can be degradation of the sound on other parts of the record besides the ticks. So a good phono preamp is a must. I use an all-tube phono I designed and built myself and it is pretty well able to shake off these overloads; many modern half-assed designs aren't.
None of this is meant to imply you should be doing things differently - your setup, whatever it is, is obviously working very well already. It's just more in the nature of Things an OCD Mono Freak Thinks About Too Much.
"It's just more in the nature of Things an OCD Mono Freak Thinks About Too Much."
ReplyDeleteI'm definitely a mono freak, and yeah, a bit obsessive about it.
I use a Grado mono cartridge when ripping some records....on others I find a 'sharper' needle perks up the sound in a way I like. In fact, I'd say that close to that garbagey bottom sometimes lies cleaner response than what you might otherwise get from a well-worn record.
Thanks for the info....particularly that about pre-amps...really interesting.
ana..
"I use a Grado mono cartridge when ripping some records...."
ReplyDeleteOK, no wonder I like your stuff so much. Those Grados are definitely the mojo when it comes to some fat-groove 45s. Check out some of the old RCA Victor mono classical records with that stylus - those are definitely another good matchup.
"on others I find a 'sharper' needle perks up the sound in a way I like. In fact, I'd say that close to that garbagey bottom sometimes lies cleaner response than what you might otherwise get from a well-worn record."
Definitely! - it totally depends on the record. Even if you are "supposed to" use a fat stylus, you MAY get a better sound from the sharp stylus on any given copy.
I'm glad you agree Jer.Eps...by and large I rely on my own listening experience rather than what I'm told is supposed to work [for better or worse].
ReplyDeleteTruth is, I do think I have a problem with upper mid/high end distortion, regardless of the cartridge used....which I'm now wondering about. Might that be symptomatic of the phono stage problem you mentioned?
It's hard to know if others can hear this problem, as my speakers are a ultra efficient full-range driver/folded horn design. Finicky exacting beasts at best.
At this point I'm using the phono stage built into my early seventies AR amplifier....an amp I love, but one I've always considered sounds overly 'bright'. I'm gonna see if I can borrow a separate pre-amp and try running everything through a bridged mono Hafler I have.
If I decide to buy a new pre-amp, do you have any thought or suggestions in the lower price range? I think Rega makes a tube pre-amp that sells for something around $150.
ana..
OK, a couple things.
ReplyDelete1. fullrange horns - you're too far gone to save. That's part of the definition of the audio deep end, from which there is no return. Trust me, I know whereof I speak. The good news, like being cast away in Tahiti, no one in their right mind would WANT to come back! If you've found your own way to that "style" of audio, no wonder you know how to make 50-year-old 45s sound right. Do you know my NOLA audiobuddy Ben Lyons by any chance?
2. Harshness. The first place I'd look is in your turntable geometry. Tonearms are usually set up to reproduce an average groove across the sweep of an LP. You play 45s - the tonearm is not tracking them at an optimal angle (because the average groove you're playing is quite a bit closer to the center spindle) and once you start trying to get a good sound from mono records with this handicap it gets even crazier. I think that's why juke boxes always sound so good - they are set up for 45s and ONLY 45s. I ended up going to a linear tracking tonearm and one of the things this did for me was blow open the sound of 45s bigtime. Linear trackers have perfect alignment everywhere across the record, LP or 45, and I promise you that is a plus.
3. What I Would Do If I Was You. Go all tubes. All you need with a full range horn setup is a single ended 2A3 power amp (3 to 5 W per channel) and that is the drug you never kick. My personal preference is also for tube phono as well but there is something to be said for the cleanliness of a solid state phono if it's a good one.
4. Check your email.
LoL..."you're too far gone to save"
ReplyDeleteIndeed.
Checking my email, now.
ana...
Oh yeah, Ben Lyons is the guy who owns the jazz label? If so, yeah I've met him..
ReplyDeleteana..